a good job and how come? >> he was able to include some descriptions about his proposals. whereas the president glossed over a lot of issues. >> any proposals that stood out specifically? >> he was more specific, it seemed on managing the money and immigration reform. >> all right. thank you. now we will go from one republican to another. let me come down to you, ellen. i know you as a republican were not as excited about his performance. where did he fall short? >> i think one of the things that i was disappointed in is that he focused so much on his own personal immigrant story. i felt that he could have been more inclusive of everything else. >> so too much about himself. >> little too much. >> you are an independent. you had policy questions. >> i'm not sure that he drew the sharp contrasts around policy, particularly around medicare and education that would have supported how partisan he was in the beginning.

so i was waiting to hear something very different from him based on how he started the speech. it felt like it was at least similar to what obama was saying. >> is this something -- we were talking beforehand in the room, but when he was talking about respecting all life that seemed to be a social issue but wasn't, is that what you are talking about. >> in the beginning of the speech when he came out and was striking a fairly partisan tone with obama i was waiting to see or hear policy differences that were sharper than what he proposed. >> final word here to proposed. >> all right. shannon, you also felt that he was falling short as an independent voter? >> yes, i was surprised and disappointed in how combative the tone seemed to be and the president's tone was conciliatory and looking for opportunities to work with congress, but rubio seemed the same problem with the last four years and us versus them instead of opportunities to work together and here is where we

can be on the same page and get something done over the next four years. >> as you are aware the rebuttal isout, and so let me lay this out, we have 12 democrats and 12 republicans and 12 independents, and so overall, do you think that marco rubio will make a good candidate for president? raise your hand. all right. he has got some votes there, so maybe from the perspective of marco rubio, that speech was successfulf, but we shall see. back to you. >> well, you make an excellent point for the senator, because first time with the national massive audience and no crowd to play off of and staring into the camera like i am now, but i do it for a living, but politics aside people are impressed with him all success aside. and the other man of the evening was president obama and a big push for him and bar of success

was about the need to create jobs, fiscal responsibility and his ability to help the middle-class. here is what he had to say tonight. >> our economy is adding jobs, but too many people still can't find full time employment. corporate profits have skyroc t skyrocketed to all-time highs, but for a decade incomes and wages have barely budged. it is our generation's task then to reignite the true engine of america's economic growth, a rising, thriving middle-class. >> tom foreman is standing by with a reality check on what the president had to say about jobs. tom? >> well, you know, krits, this issue of jobs has been the issue of the obama presidency from the beginning, and he did talk about it tonight and just like the campaign and let's get more jobs in the middle-class and help them to move ahead and help with the savings, but the simple truth is that the first thing he

has to do is to get them out of the hole they have descended into in recent years. let's look at the jobs record since he took office n. 2009 when he came in 183 million people were unemploy and dramatically dropping until february of 2010 when it hit the lowest point, and then we began the long slow grind up to where we are today, and that is about 1.2 million jobs higher than it was when the president took office in 2009. that is an improvement, but not nearly as robust as many people would like to see, and here's the more important point. the jobs that we lost over here were better than the jobs that we have gained back over here. and let me explain what i am talking about. rutgers university did a study where they talked to a lot of people who had lost jobs and then regained other jobs, and

this is what they found, of the people 22% said that they are being paid the same as they were before. beyond that, though, look at this, 24% said they are paid more and 55% said they are being paid less. this is one of the great underreported stories of the economy, underemployment, and the people who work hard and trying to move ahead, and many of whom are middle-class, and just can't get any real traction here. this is the great challenge for this president, and not merely to produce jobs, but good jobs which continue to be in short supply. chris? >> tom, you make an excellent point. and not only looking at the big red section is that an obvious challenge, because when you look at underemployment you go from the 8% to 16%, which is a more formidable number, and it seems as though you should have a magic wand, tom, the way you move your hand and appear -- i'm

new to cnn and that is impressive. you have to teach me how to do that. i have to go to the contributors van jones, and ana navarro and cornell belcher, and margaret hoover, and so, the number that we want to talk about, democrats and jobs, ana na vvarro, have ty proved in any demonstrable way that they have improved the jobs that we need them to do? >> well, if you look at the last quarter in the last year of how they had to readjust it, the answer is no. we agree that we are a country in economic distress and i'm proud that president obama pivoted back to jobs, because he has not been talking about the economy or the deficit or the jobs in the inaugural, and i thought it was a huge gap in the

inaugural speech, so it is a good thing that he is talking about it. i may not be agreeing with everything that he is saying, but i am glad that he is talking about it. i thought he offered a great grocery list of what he wanted, but i am not sure we can afford it. he said it is not going to be increasing by one dime, but he is right, it is a whole lot of dimes. >> and van, we will get your ree spons and go to the break and get more on the other side, but what is the response? >> well, on the last topic, nothing stops a bullet in the other neighborhoods like a job, a good job. there is a big economic dimension to the issues that are connected. and number two, the things that the president put forward to create jobs are things that we can afford the do and have to do. he talked about the public/private partnerships to bring in capital to fix the bridges and the roads. it is irresponsible to let

70,000 bridges fall down and then fix them which costs more money. he needs common sense ideas and i hope he gets credit for the common sense ideas to help make america stronger and create jobs. >> you said job growth and raising taxes creates partisan gridlock like almost nothing, and margaret, tell me if i'm right, but when you say raising taxes, it is the opposite of job growth and stimulus to the republican, fair? >> yes, and the republicans feel that taxes just went up, and quickly, pause we have to go to the break, but the president mentioned the word debt in the context of the federal debt, and marco rubio listed it seven or eight time, and that is a major error, and this is the watermark of the president to attack what he says are the drivers of the debt and the "washington post" editorial board meeting where he

wants to be that guy with the legacy, he has now to act, and he totally missed the opportunity tonight to go this that direction. >> cornell, you are so deep in thought, quick counterpoint. >> well, it is going to boggle my mind, because if we want the economy, if we are in a real recession and keep cutting, you cannot cut your way to pros pairty, it is not common sense. >> and let's leaf it the ee's l >> and $24 billion in -- >> deficit and not debt. >> and they are going to keep fighting behind me. and following another important story tonight, a shootout and hostage, and now still waiting to confirm the fate of ex-fugitive and cop killer. we will get a live update from california when we come back. all stations come over to mission a for a final go.

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>> announcer: this is cnn breaking news. hello, everyone. recapping this hour's news from

california. authorities are hoping that a ten-day killing rampage is over after tuesday's shootout and fire near a mountain resort. they are pretty sure that christopher dorner the fired los angeles policeman now linked to four deaths is the man who took refuge in a cabin burned down. but i say pretty sure, because there are no true confirmation of reports to the positive identification. >> that cabin is too hot for anybody to get entry. no body has been recovered in the cabin. that cabin has not been searched because it is too hot as of five minutes ago for anybody to go in there. any reports of a body being found are not true. no body has yet been found in there, and any reports that the body has been identified as christopher dorner is not true. nobody has been identified and nobody has been located. >> why the confusion? we are going to talk about that with a journal nis a moment, but first, more information of the

tuesday's shootout and fire happened in san bernardino county where one deputy was killed and another critically wounded by a suspect they believe to be dorner. they say that the suspect was inside of the cabin that burned down, but they have not gone inside. >> and that cabin has not been entered. law enforcement has not entered the cabin, because it is hot and smould smoldering and not safe for them to enter. i cannot tell you at this time when they will enter the cabin. it is a huge crime scene and anticipate them being there most of the night. there is no conflicting information. it is too hot to go in there. they believe there is a body inside, but they have not been inside, because it is not safe. >> that is cindy bachmann from the san bernardino sheriff's

office. let's try to sort out the confusion. we have jen who is covering the shootout from "time" magazine. what is your sense of the competing accounts of what is going on, if there is a body and the result of the burning? >> thank you for having me on, chris. there is quite a lot of confusion going on, because a police chief, and deputy police chief from the riverside came out and reported in a meeting to have said that the body was found, and the lapd came out and said, no, no, no body has been found and we will be stuck with that until the morning. >> look, a lot of good reasons that the confusion could be going on, jens, because it is unusual for so many branchs of the law enforcement to coordinate, and they don't normally communicate, and maybe a symptom of that?

>> yes, it is unprecedented. you have to look at the largest reward ever offer ed ed in the history of this city and region. you had all sorts of agencies coordinating, and in fact, the agency that began the whole standoff today was the fish and wildlife who got involved in the chase and the shootout with dorner, so they were coordinating with the deputies involved in the gunfight and the lapd, and so many people involved in this that it is quite confusing. >> just to give a sense of the enormity of what to take on. two different carjackings, hostages and two shootouts and three branches of law enforcement involved and now jens, we are left with this conflicting situation where the lapd is saying that we don't know that he is in there and to prove that we think that he may not be in there, we will keep all of the security precautions from the man targeted by these men up and going and then the

san bernardino office who seems to have removed the perimeter and allowed the traffic to flow, and very conflicting information. thank you for the reporting throughout the day and i am sure that we will speak to you again. thank you for putting in the time with us. >> thank you, chris. >> that is jens gould and he is covering this for "time" magazine. so now back to the presidential address. we went back and polled some americans and half said they had a positive response and 24% said somewhat positive and 22% said they had a negative response. we asked if the speech would lead to more bipartisan cooperation, and 59% said yes, and 53% said no, and we will talk about the numbers in a moment. most were satisfied with the speech of the length and 81% saying it is about right, an hour and so, and we asked how it compared to the inaugural

address and 58% said they liked it better and only 20% liked the inaugural address. this is not a scientific poll, but more were democrats and just as more democrats watch a democratic president than republicans. and a president spoke about a controversial issue that he spoke about in the address and the topic is climate change. >> we can choose to believe that super storm sandy and the most severe drought in decades and the worst wildfires some states have ever seen were a freak coincidence. or we can choose to believe in the overwhelming judgment of science and act before it is too late. >> get back to the contributors right now. hoover, were you laughing at me flub iing on the prompter or something else? >> well, just doing a little dance with the climate change -- >> and you to love van jones,

because he has a great name and good moves. >> and we are all just happen p pi that he mentioned climate change, because this man gets giddy. >> i want to give you the climate change, because it matters, and there is no question. however, what fomented the most debate before we left was the fundamental proposition to deal with imminently, and it is spinning, and everything is saying the same thing in the government, cut spending, and cut spending and a we have a moral and legal and all of these duties to cut the spending and then a constant fight about what that means. tonight, president obama to set the table said my budget proposal will keep us deficit-neutral. and i ask you, cornell, is that good enough when you have to be paying down debt and the deficit? good enough to be neutral? can it be true that it is neutral and enough? >> no, but not for the reasons that you say. he wants to make it completely neutral, because that is a compromise to say, we won't add on anymore, but most of the economists will tell you that we need to stimulate the economy

more, and guess what, the chart that e showed when we started picking up, funny thing is that you correlate that chart to when the recovery package was implemented and we had our economy to pick up. it is not rocket science. >> look, you to stop picking on chris. >> you have disagreed with everything. >> this man has been on his feet for 15 hours. >> and he has better hair and attacking everything that i say. >> he is the new guy. >> you know. >> and you know -- >> trial by fire. look. >> you are supposed to disagree with them, and that is the way it is to work and i'm not supposed to disagree. >> it is bad when they disagree with each other. >> there is a view of the liberal and the conservative view to stimulate the economy. they believe if you let the government get out of the way, it will generate more taxpayers to generate more revenue, and

cornell and the friends believe that it is the government spend hag is going to generate the spending in the middle-class, and i will legal let you know that, because that is your expertise, but if you say deficit-neutral, and if you have deficit-neutral and trillion dollar budgets, you are still adding trillion dollars of debt every year. >> and strong point from hoover, and what do you say, van jones? >> well, at the break, we were going back and forth hard, but democrats an republicans are actually mirror images when it comes to the climate change, and the democrats say we have a moral obligation to act, and if we keep doing this, we will have super storms that are awful, and the republicans say the same thing on the budget and the debt and the deficit and if we keep doing what we are doing, and somehow the logic of democrats makes sense to climate but not deficit. >> and two different storms. >> yes, and you have a fiscal

and debt cliff, and there it is and the other is climate. >> well, we have this group here and the entire group of everyone else on the internet social media and it lit up when president obama called for increasing the minimum wage and the most tweeted most of the speech and racking up 24,000 tweets a minute. now, also a lot of activity on a lighter note, and both twitter and facebook exploded when senator rubio paused to take a drink of water in his speech. >> nothing has frustrated me more than the false choices that the president has laid out. the choice is not just between big government and -- >> oh, you are a pro. that is all you will talk about. the puns on twitter were relentless and so did the hashtag watergate. >> he reached for a bottle of

water, but if it were a mojito and a cigar. >> oh, no. >> it is one of the most painful parts of politics that the man is up there, and of course, the mouth is going to be dry, and i have drunk like nine cups of water tonight, but it winds up to be a big deal. i won't talk about it anymore and i won't do it for the senator and all decency we won't talk about it anymore, but this is what we will speak about and when we heard the president speak emotionally about gun violence, we had an exclusive interview with the hero in the president's address. he survived a massacre and a barrage of bullets. you must hear his story.

we have something special for you now. we saw raw emotion in the house chamber tonight when president obama spoke about gun violence. he pointed to a police officer who had rushed to the scene of a shooting massacre, and take a listen. >> we should follow the example of a police officer named brian murphy. when a gunman opened fire on a sikh temple in wisconsin. he did not consider his own safety, but fought back until other officers arrived to help

protect the safety of other americans worshipping inside, and even as he lay bleeding from 12 bullet wounds. >> not only shot that many times, but the reason he took all of those shots was to distract the shooter so he could not go back in, and how do we know? because we sat with an exclusive interview with lieutenant brian murp murphy. >> i have been hit an awful lot, and when you look down and you are on your belly and your hands are shot to pieces, you start to thinking, i might be in trouble here. >> reporter: lieutenant murphy remembers all of the 15 bullets he took on what he called a beautiful morning this past august after shots were fired at a sihk temple. >> reporter: what happened? >> we both shot at about the

same time when i saw his pistol come up. 30 or 40 yards maybe, and i missed and he hit me direct ly n the chin and went down my throat and ripped apart my voice box and larynx. >> reporter: the voice is damaged, but there is dash cam video the show to story, of how murray tries to capture the man firing right at him. when murphy is hit, the shooter closes in. nine people were already shot. six died in a hateful act of doe mes tick terrorism, and now lieutenant murphy was in the shooter's sights, and that is when the shots hit me in the back of the leg and the vest a couple of times, and then he shot me directly in the back of the head just right here in the back of the skull. that is the one that kind of stopped me in my tracks. >> reporter: that should have ki killed murphy, but it was the beginning. >> he continued to shoot probably six to eight feet away. and then all of the sudden, it

got very quiet. there was no sound. there was nothing. and that was the first time that i thought i might be going out. i just felt warm and my eyes got heavy, and i thought, i could stay here. >> reporter: in a life or death situation, the officer makes an amazing decision. instead of curling up to protect himself, he keeps moving to distract the gunman and a heroic move that came at great costs. >> nobody gets shot this many times and was that going through your head, i can't believe i have been shot that many times. >> and you know, it is funny you say that, and it is silly to laugh, but i thought, jesus, are you not done? i mean, how many times can you not shoot someone? >> reporter: even when help comes, murphy waves off the fellow officers telling them to he heldp others first. his survival is a miracle. i have never heard of anybody

who took 15 rounds before and you probably never have heard it. why you? have you asked yourself, why was i chosen to survive? >> it is probably one of the first questions i asked even in intensive care, why me? i probably could have lived with myself if it was one of the officers who i worked with. >> reporter: part of why may have been answered when he received an invitation to be a guest of the president at the state of the union. >> reporter: when people see you at the state of the union, what do you believe you will symbolize? >> i hope perseverance. i hope dedication to duty. >> reporter: his presence in the first lady's box may also symbolize the president's push for restriction of guns. >> from the societal point of view, there has to be recognition of the fact that this is a problem. does it necessarily mean restriction, i don't know.

my shooter would have passed any background check, and as a matter of fact, went and bought his weapon legally, and does that mean we give up and don't touch anything? i think that what is being done is the correct thing. >> reporter: for all he has lived there one thing that lieutenant murphy is sure he does not want to be lived with is that word. >> if you want to call me stubborn man of the year, fine. but i don't want the word hero. >> reporter: well, you have to get used

no body has yet been found in there. any reports that body has been identified as christopher dorner are not true. nobody has been identified or located. >> the san bernardino sheriff's office says they are confident someone was inside that cabin and they believe it is dorner and they believe he is still inside even though it is burned down. dorner was believed to be holed up in the cabin after a gunfight that left one deputy dead and another injured. the cabin caught on fire after a tactical operation involving a s.w.a.t. team. the roads were cleared to let firefighters in to clear out the fire. police got a report of a carjacking and the victim said that the suspect looked like dorner. the suspect fled into the woods and barricaded himself in the

cabin. during a gun battle a deputy was killed and another injured. the second is expected to survive. a local cbs reporter carter evans described the situation by cell phone when a gunfight broke out. listen. >> this is a fluid situation. we are staying here. we don't want to be caught many the cross fire ourselves. >> you, come here. >> me? >> you, come here. >> get down. [ gunshots ] get the [ bleep ] out of here now. >> again the --

[ gunshots ] [ gunshots ]. >> get down! [ gunshots ]. >> now again, the lapd is saying they are still on tactical alert and giving protection to the people they have been

protecting. that despite reports to the contrary that no body has been found and no one has gone into the cabin. dorner's suspected death toll is four people. he is accused of killing another police officer, the daughter of the police representative and her fiance. there was a third press conference. what is significant about what he says is that first a report went out that a vehicle had been stolen. the "l.a. times" reported that dorner was holed up in another cabin and held a couple hostage for the last several days. that is why there has been no word of him over the last several days since his burning vehicle was found at the end of last week. a report went out that a vehicle was stolen, a purple nissan. officials were on the look outfor that when they saw another vehicle, a white pickup

truck coming their way. that pickup truck was carjacked when the purple nissan -- when the suspect lost control of that. apparently carjacked another driver, carjacked this white pickup truck. shots were exchanged between the fish and wildlife officials and the suspect in the white nissan and he allegedly fled. this has been a press conference coming up. we want to look at how the events unfolded today starting this afternoon. let's check in with miguel marquez on the scene all day long. miguel, let's walk through and take a step back and with what we know and what we don't know. there's a lot of conflicting information. we have been trying to make the point all evening long and for the hours we have been covering this that often first reports are contradictory and turn out to be wrong. what do we know and not know? ? >> we know there is somebody in the cabin who is deceased. we don't know whether or not

that person killed themselves before police moved in or died in the flames that destroyed that cabin. we don't know how that fire started in that cabin. we know the investigators or the s.w.a.t. team went in with gas. was it that that set it off or did the person inside set off that. we know the person tried to make a half-hearted attempt to escape by throwing a smoke canister outside of the door. he was forced in toe the cabin and not able to get out. san bernardino sheriffs office is certain they have the entire area cordoned off, sealed enough that they know he did not get out of it. they had helicopters overhead. they know they were able to keep that person in that cabin and that everything that they know about christopher dorner's last movements or every sighting of him up until that cabin brought him all the way in to that cabin. so it is very likely -- the

other thing that i learned earlier, that i didn't think of much when i first learned it, is his cell phone popped on earlier today and it is possible that law enforcement was able to talk to him and at least by voice confirm that it was him, either on the run or in that cabin and try to ascertain whether he had hostages in there. that was clearly one of the big points where everything sort of mellowed at one point during the day. everything stopped when they weren't sure whether they could go in to that cabin and take him out. because they weren't sure if there were hostages. at one point they realized there were not and they went in and we are where we are right now, anderson. >> we don't know a lot of the details of the time line on tear gas being fired, whether they did physically go in or whether once that building caught fire whether they just waited outside. we're waiting to get the operational details on that, how much communication, if any, was there between the suspect and

the authorities. the other thing that, miguel, i'm curious about. there's been a lot made about the cooperation and publicly, officials, law enforcement officials have been talking about the cooperation between state, federal and local officials in all of this. earlier tonight the lapd gave a press conference saying they had resources standing by, waiting at the airport, waiting to be called in by the san bernardino sheriffs department. we never got word whether those resources -- by resources i assume they mean s.w.a.t. team members and the like. the lapd department has been making a big deal this is a san bernardino operation. is there tension about this? >> this gets in to a difficult situation with the different agencies that were involved here. there was a lot of competition between the agencies here. it is not clear that san bernardino was open to other agencies whether it federal, local or counties coming in to

san bernardino to assist them. keep in mind, san bernardino scaled back the level of their search throughout the past week thinking that dorner may have left the area. there were several agencies that offered san bernardino a lot of resources along the way, which san bernardino said nope, we're covered, no problem. i think the perception among a lot of law enforcement here is one of frustration to some degree. when thursday happened, the truck was up here with the broken axle and dorner set it on fire, the thinking was flood the zone. check every house, check everything. sit on this area. this is the only place he can be. he must be here. it also snowed heavily that night. escaping would have been very difficult in that sort of snow. there were no reports of stolen cars as far as we know in that first day or two. so, there is not many ways off the mountain once you are up there. you have to go farther in to the mountain or get off of it somehow.

now we get to a point where san bernardino is having to pull back its searching throughout the day. they said they searched 600 empty cabins but they were searching empty cabins and not all the cabins out there and if it is the case that these individuals were tied up for several days that may be what dorner realizes that they would search empty cabins and not focus on those who had people in them. >> it has been a difficult day for san bernardino sheriffs department. they have lost one officer and another officer shot. the officer underwent surgery and is going to be okay but they lost one officer and they have not named him yet that's why we are not giving out the name. there was a press conference with the california fish and wildlife spokesman. this is what he said. it is fascinating. >> i want you to recognize the heart-felt loss we have experienced with one of our law enforcement brethren in the san bernardino department. our hearts go out to the family

of the officer wounded. it is a sad day in law enforcement. i want to answer the questions, i can bring you up from the first contact to when we last lost contact with our suspect. so basically, i want to try to fill in some gaps. basically what happened is the suspect was driving the purple nissan. there was call out for the nissan. there were two wardens driving and one patrol truck. they were driving down highway 32, and they were approaching two buses. they passed the two buses and noticed tucked in behind the bus was the suspect vehicle. they immediately attempted to do a u-turn, but because of the road being narrow and they couldn't get on top of them. they put the radio call out that

they were engaged in a pursuit of the suspect vehicle. the suspect quickly realized he had been identified. he passed the two school buses. by the time our wardens got up, he was in front of the two school buses. he then turned on to glass road. our warden, the initial wardens -- the two wardens in the one vehicle who found him didn't realize he turned on that glass road and they continued on in front of the school buses. of course they put out on the radio what was going on. three additional wardens in two vehicles, two were paired up and one by himself, continued on. they ended up turning on to glass road. they were expecting to find the rav -- i'm sorry, it is not a rav. they were expecting to find the purple nissan. that i were looking for the purple nissan.

the warden in the front by himself and two behind that were doubled up in their vehicle. the warden in front noticed the white truck driving at a high rate of speed. because he was drawn to this erratic behavior, he took a close look at the driver and recognized him as the suspect. before he even had a chance to put it out over the radio, of course they are now driving in opposite directions again. he already passed the suspect vehicle. the suspect rolled his window down and when the second patrol truck came up with the two wardens inside is when he engaged in the shooting with our wardens, as they were driving. he did hit the truck multiple times. the wardens stopped their vehicle. >> thank you. i'm going to go ahead and take a drink. the wardens stopped their vehicle. that's helpful. at that point, where they did

engage the suspect the second time he shot at our wardens. they stopped the vehicle. as he continued around the bend in the curve, he went to a location where he could engage the suspect and fired multiple rounds a the suspect as he was driving away. it is unknown whether or not he was hit or how many times the truck was hit. that's up in the air at this point. that's basically where fish and game -- or fish and wildlife wardens lost contact with the suspect. the radio call had gone out and now the world is coming to help. >> is it your understanding there were two vehicles the suspect was in, the purple. >> the question is whether the suspect was in two vehicles, the purple nissan and he appeared to be driving too fast, lost control of the vehicle and car yakked the white pickup and fleed the scene when our warden noticed him.

>> when the org afl call came out with the purple nissan, did you or your wardens hear that this 911 call came from two women that may have been held hostage and they own that purple nissan and one woman escaped and was able to call for help and that's how you guys got the original bolo. >> i don't know the source of it but when it came out everyone was looking for the purple nissan and that's when they noticed the suspect as he was drooifg away. >> any idea who owned that purple nissan. any inclination that this came from somebody who was car jacked, came from a 911, the source of the purple nissan. >> that i don't know the answer to. [ inaudible ] quite a few. yo i don't have the exact number but he did engage with quite a few rounds. more than 12, more than a dozen,

more than 15. right around that area. >> did the suspect fire back? >> when he did engage the second vehicle that he passed he held a pistol out the window and fired multiple shots and he hit the truck multiple shots. somebody has asked for my name again. >> that is former fbi director tom funties is joining us on the phone. i'm interested if what officials are saying and what condition an other news groups have reported about whether or not christopher dorner is inside of that cabin whether his body has been seen, whether it has been removed. >> anderson, i'm not sure why the discrepancy and why lapd is saying one thing it appears to contradict, a little bit what the sheriffs office is saying, but, i'm going to go by action rather than words. the actions that are that they

have called off the search. you don't see hundreds of officers and agents pouring in the area to resume a naunt the mountains and to resume door-to door searches of every house in the area that could have been home invaded by him where he is holding people hostage or attempting to steal another car. they called off the check points, as miguel pointed out. if he got to another family and steal their car, you know, they are going to give him a wide-open roadway to drive away and be off and free. the fact they have called off the major search, they are not looking for a fugitive on the mountain top, that they are not looking door to door to see if home invasions have occurred, they are not looking for another vehicle or checking vehicles coming and going anymore from that area tells me that department must be 100% sure that his body is in that cabin and he's no longer free to roam around and terrorize anybody.

now, having said that, i think then we question the scaled back dramatically the searches door to door. we know they were originally searching empty cabins. we would have expected that that search would have included every possible home, including residential homes to look for any possible family that could have been held hostage and now it turns out in the aftermath of having scaled back that search he was holding people hostage. you would think the sheriffs office wouldn't want to make a similar mistake and scale back too soon with the possible he would take another family hostage and kill more people. everything has been scaled back and called off. i don't care what they say i care what they are doing and what they are not doing is searching for dorner at this moment. >> the san bernardino county

sheriffs department said a few moments ago they believe there is a suspect inside of that house, the house that burned down to the ground. therefore, the suspect is dead, the body is still inside there. whether or not they say it is too hot to actually go in. nothing has been removed yet from that structure. as you say, all indications on the ground are based on the scaling down of the operation, the opening of the roadways, the fact the road blocks do not exist any longer and in areas where there were dozens or hundreds of police officers there are none in the area that miguel marquez is standing by and it seems they have deescalated this and believe the threat, such as it was is over. tom, appreciate your reporting on this. i want to bring in "los angeles times" reporter joel rubin, who's joining us by phone. what do you make of this apparent discrepancy between the l.a. times, cnn and others have been reporting that christopher dorner's body had been recovered at least a body from that cabin and announcement from the lapd and the announcement that no body has been recovered? >> it is a mystery for sure. it is a very unusual situation

that i, at least, in five years of covering the lapd have not found myself in. we can speculate that it might have something to do with them wanting to be 110% sure they know what they are talking about and getting a little frustrated they have some leaks coming out of the scene, or at least authorities on the scene talking to news agencies before they want to. especially in situations like this. the departments try -- usually futilely to put wraps on things until they go publicly and that might be what we are seeing here. >> if authorities thought there was any chance that dorner survived or escaped that -- you would think they would be explicit about that to give a warning to people that live in the area because this property that the suspect was on is about ten acres in size, according to to family that owns it. but there are other houses off in the relatively close area.

>> yeah. most definitely. your previous guest, i think, really summarized reading the tea leaves very well. i think you would see a very different scenario and scene right now if there was concern that he had somehow managed to get through the dragnet that hey had put around the location. as you said, we are now starting to hear san bernardino folks say we don't know for sure it is him. we think that the body, the person, whoever it is, was in there when the building was engulfed in flames. >> i read l.a. times reporting earlier in the day. you guys had information about basically that dorner had been in another cabin and allegedly holding a couple hostage. what have you learned? >> well, we will be coming out -- we are still scrambling to put all of the details together. but what we can tell you is they were made, who were in the cabin to clean the cabin and walked in and found dorner in there.

he took them hostage and we're still unclear on the time line how long they were in there. >> this is a different cabin than the one the suspect ended up in. >> correct. it was a different cabin. he took them hostage. took their car. it's the purple nissan that the fish and wildlife representative referenced. took that car and then proceeded to be spotted by the fish and wildlife officers. he ditched that car and then car jacked another white pickup truck and then was cornered and crashed that and ran in to the second cabin where this all has unfolded. >> okay. so this is starting to make sense. because there have been -- it's only recently that we realized there was this first vehicle, this nissan, purple nissan that was stolen apparently from the first cabin that he had been in.

but then we had gotten a report and heard a local news interview with a friend of the person hijacked in the pickup truck that said the suspect emerged from the woods with a weapon and car jacked this white pickup truck. that would make sense. i didn't understand that he had stolen one vehicle from the cabin why is he car jacking a white pickup truck emerging from the woods but the fact he allegedly lost control of the first purple nissan would make sense as to why he would have to car jack another vehicle. >> right. i was listening to the fish and wildlife press conference on the air with you. i was a little confused myself. i don't know if he crashed the purple car and then car jacked the white vehicle or maybe, and this is just speculation, and maybe thought he could make a getaway if he switched cars. who knows. part of the puzzle of a crazy day we are trying to put together. >> that's the first detail i

have heard from you on that it was housekeepers who walked in on this cabin. that's an interesting detail. look more for details in the l.a. times. appreciate you joining us. i know it has been a busy day and will be a business nigh night for you. joining me on the phone is kyle martin whose family owns the cabin where it went down. the cabin burned to the ground. appreciate you being with us and sorry for all your family has been through and watching your family's home go up in flames. has your family heard from law enforcement about what happened aft the cabin, or are you getting any information from them? >> yeah. i know -- i talked to my mother but as far as the information told to her i don't think much. >> police say the scene is too hot from the fire for them to go in and see if dorner's body is in there. give us a sense of how big the cabin is, how much space the officers and firefighters would have to search through.

i know you said there is a fairly large basement, big enough to stand up in and an attic space. can you describe the cabin for us? >> yeah. the cabin itself is about 1800 square feet. and it does have a pretty good size basement, about 800 square feet. you can stand up in and everything. the attic itself is pretty small. you have to crawl in it. it is a crawl space area. but, other than that. the property is on ten acres with six other cabins on the property. >> kyle, your family had given significant information to law enforcement early on once i believe it was your mom was watching tv saw this cabin of hers on the television and i believe either you or somebody else contacted law enforcement and you were able to tell there is no cable or phone service. there was a concern that anyone

with access to television might be able to watch operational details unfold if cameras were capturing that up close. >> yeah as far as i knew there was no internet connect or permanent resident up there anymore and my mom was able to know there shouldn't be anyone in the other cabins. none were rented out. >> it was crucial information because there had been great concern that dorner who picked the cabin by happenstance because that's where he happened to be close to the shootout with

fish and game service that had there been hostages or potential hostages, people in the cabins when he got there that would change the a way the tactical teams could pursue and deal with this and could change the time line of any potential going in to this or negotiation. that information was critical to them. kyle, appreciate talking to you, as i have talked to you throughout the day and again i'm sorry for all your family has been going through and i know you said before your thoughts and prayers are with the officer wounded from the sheriffs department and the family of the officer who lost his life. thank you, kyle. we will have more on this breaking news and we will play you more from the gun battle and the latest from the scene.

in all the drama today, we don't want to forget that four lives were lost and four families lives have been forever changed. we know the name of three alleged victims morks monica quan and she and her fiance keith lawrence were killed and michael crain. we remember them and their family and friends tonight. it has been a dramatic day. we want to look at how all the events unfolded starting this afternoon when after days of silence the manhunt took a heart-stopping turn. something that could have come out of a movie script. randi kaye reports. >> reporter: 12:22 p.m. at california's big bear mountain. san bernardino county sheriffs deputies on the hunt for christopher dorner when suddenly a major break in the case. a call from a couple who had been tied up at their cabin reporting a stolen vehicle. >> they reported a stolen vehicle in the 1200 block of

club view drive. they responded there and received information from the person reporting that the stolen vehicle was stolen by an individual that appeared to be very similar to christopher dorner. >> law enforcement sets up a road block. a search begins from the air. at 12:45, a california fish and game officer recognizes a man fitting dorner's description in a vehicle traveling in the opposite direction on highway 38 and glass road. the man attempts to flee. hundreds of rounds of gun fire are exchanged. reporter carter evans from kcal tv is caught in the middle of the gun fire during a live report for his station. >> is that someone yelling in the background, carter? >> yeah, authorities are yelling at us to get out of here, but we don't know where to go.

i hear some screaming. you heard all of the gun fire. >> the suspect escapes in to the forest, holing himself up in the cabin. two sheriffs deputies are shot. one from inside the cab and the other from behind the cabin moments before a smoke bomb is set off. both are airlifted to loma linda medical center. one deputy is taken in to surgery, the other pronounced dead. >> unfortunately, one of the deputies, who was airlifted to the loma linda medical center, we are told by the l.a. times had died. >> by 1:00 p.m., law enforcement has the cabin surrounded. it is about 40 miles from where dorner's burned out truck was found on big bear mountain. police break windows, pump in tear gas and urge the suspect to give up. >> i think this is the break we have all been waiting for to get him out this in the open and flushed out and no longer in hiding.

my personal opinion is now it is a matter of time. >> the standoff continues. no response from the man in the cabin. s.w.a.t. teams are on high alert. guns drawn. ready to wait out the man, they believe is christopher dorner, the man they have been searching for a week now. then the l.a. times reports a vehicle is brought in to rip down the walls of the cabin. >> he is now the hunted. >> 4:30 p.m., smoke starts to come from the cabin and then flames. >> you see the images as we are seeing them live. clearly a large fire in the cabin. >> a source says the cabin caught fire after police detonated smoke devices inside. >> the cabin is too hot for anyone to make entry. there's been no body located in the cabin. the cabin has not yet been searched because the fire is still too hot. any reports of a body being found are not true. >> should point out san

bernardino officials came out in a press conference later saying they believe the suspect is in the cabin. that the suspect's body is in the cabin. they have just not retrieved it at this point. randi kaye is joining me live from the lapd headquarters. you have more information from the captain? >> yeah. i pulled him aside, anderson just after the press conference too try to clear up was there or wasn't there a body removed. he said he was on the phone with somebody a few feet from the cabin and he said there were still embers burning and a little flame. it was so hot that no one would have gone inside. he said they were hoping to get in tonight but they didn't know if it would be cool enough to do that. they may have to wait until the morning to do it and he said if they got in there tonight it would take hours because they would have to photograph the scene. they have to take pictures before they remove the body. there is no way the body would have been removed tonight and identified tonight. he said that will take weeks.

>> i want to bring in miguel marquez near big bear and chris in los angeles on the phone and on the phone we have fbi dregter tom fuentes. as we were talking to joel rubin and tom fuente, s, all indications are that law enforcement officials believe that the threat from the suspect has been neutralized, correct? >> well, the clearest indication that we have, anderson, is that three hours ago, two hours ago, there were dozens of police officers on this road blocking this off. they have opened it up now. you can get up to almost to the area where the cabin is still smoldering. every indication that we have is that this is over.

if it wasn't, san bernardino sheriffs office, i'm sure, would still be going house to house searching for mr. dorner. they are not doing that. the search is effectively over. the road blocks are down. this is done. they will perhaps wait until the morning to bring the body out but it seems clear to me they knew who was in that house, whether from the eyewitnesss who saw them, the sheriffs deputy answer the fish and game wardens who saw him, and others who saw him go to that house or whether or not they got voice recognition and some sort of voice data from him when they -- when his cell phone popped on today and they were able to talk to him and confirm he was in fact in the house or on the run. every indication we have is that he is dead. he is in that house. and now it is a matter of formalizing it. anderson? >> lapd psychologist, chris, you had hoped and you and i have been talking the last several days and you expressed public hope that he would give himself up. given what you knew -- from the reading of his so-called manifesto from his writings, did you believe he would, or did you

think that it would end in some sort of configuration like this? >> i had always hoped he would hear that message and realize you can always regroup and change your mind, but it did not look like a good outcome for him. it looked like he foretold his own outcome which was not to be taken alive and hurt as many people as he could before that happened. >> what was your sense of how well planned out this was? clearly there had been some level of planning. i mean, there were several years frankly from the time he was kicked off the force to these violent outbursts, these alleged killings that he is a suspect in. he certainly had time to write this so-called manifesto to reach out to various people and news agencies, myself included, to track the daughter of lapd official whom he's accused of killing and her fiance.

how much planning do you think went in to this? though obviously in the last final hours the plan, whatever it was, kind of fell apart. >> we heard it. >> i agree. i think there was a lot of planning that went in to the fantasies about getting revenge, about his reasoning, about who his targets would be. but at the end of the day, there was a lot of posturing and it all did fall apart, as he felt the great resources of law firm coming to bear upon him. he was on the run and he was stressed. he was making mistakes. he was not as well thought out as he presented himself in a lot of respects. thankfully so. he felt the heat and he started to panic. he got desperate. he made mistakes. and law enforcement did a good job of turning the heat up on so

that all of those things could occur. >> jewel rubin, there's a lot of questions everyone would like answered. what are the main ones you would like answered beyond an absolute identification of the man whose body is believed to be in the ruins of that house? what are the biggest holes in the narrative that we know? >> well, yeah. obviously, as you said, the i.d. would be a big one. but really there's a lot of questions of -- well, going way back. there's questions of where he's been and what he's been doing since about 2011 when he exhausted all of his appeals to having been fired from the lapd. i would love to know what has he been doing and stewing over and what led to him suddenly deciding to put in to action this twisted manifesto that police attribute to him. we have seen he was formally

removed or discharged from the navy a few days before the killings in irvine which he is alleged to have committed and i'm concerned to hear whether that had to do with it or something else and fast forward to the last several days how he managed to avoid being seen with every law enforcement agency in southern california looking for him over the past few days. how he was able to keep such a low pro- file and not be seen is a big question for us, too. >> you talked about the details you and the l.a. times were learning about him being in another cabin and he was surprised by housekeepers who he then held hostage. do you know how long he was in the previous cabin for? the day his vehicle was found burning, do we know his whereabouts that evening, where he spent that night? was it in that cabin?

do we know? >> we don't. we are still putting the pieces together. we have folks trying to put the time line, that time line or that particular piece of the time line together. we don't know if it was that day when the truck was abandoned and i would have to assume, i think we can safely assume if two maids were missing several days that somebody would know about it and start sounding alarm bells. i'm just guessing here but i would have to assume the period of time is relatively short. maybe today, yesterday. who knows. >> tom fuentes, what questions would you like answered? >> main one is why is the search scaled back to such an extent several days ago and now turns up he is holding hostages in the very area of the mountain. that's pretty serious decision to scale back and stop searching and make an assumption he left the area and left the country

and in the meantime he is under their nose and holding people hostage they better be searching pretty soon the rest of the homes around there. they could still find a dead family or two on that mountain. possible he got in to somebody else's home and maybe went home to home. he's been in that area ever since the truck was burned last week. there are a lot of questions and i would have a lot of concerns that every resident in that area can be verified to be safe. >> miguel marquez is still with us. is there any evidence, any suggestion that he may have had help? he may have had accomplice, large other small in any way in the last couple of days? >> he had friends. and friends that he communicated with quite a bit in the days leading up to this, in the week leading up to. this there is one friend in particular, 600 phone calls went between them in the last two weeks before the deadly spree

began. but investigators say they cleared everybody. they talked to them. they wanted to know their relationship with him. were they accomplices? did they help him in any way and there wasn't one individual that they seemed to think helped him in any way. at the moment, it doesn't appear he had any -- that he asked for any help or that anybody crossed any line and assisted him in any way or knew that he was going to carry this thing out. so it does not appear that he had accomplices. he had some support out there. as you know, on facebook and on twitter and other places, there has been support for him. lapd has a checkered past. they are the first to admit it. they were hoping to get beyond many of the problems they had with regard to race and this brought up a lot of that ugly history of lapd and i think he found some zus tans, that mr. dorner found some sustenance in that and in his self

righteous mind it made sense to him and he was able to cling on to that and feel he was right, even more right than he already felt he was. >> joel rubin, the l.a. times gave us this piece of information earlier this hour, that it was two maids that stumbled upon dorner in one of these cabins, not the cabin where he ended up, but they were taken hostage. do you have any information how long they were held for? were they harmed? was it one of their vehicles stolen, the purple cease nissan is that one of their vehicles? >> that's our understanding but everything is really a jigsaw puzzle right now. just to give you a sense of how quickly things are changing i'm sitting at my desk, and an e-mail just came in from somebody who claims to know the two women who were in the building taken hostage and as soon as i get off with you i'm

going to call them and see what they do know. it's just -- we don't know all of the details. we don't know how long they were in there. we don't know what their relationship was to the apartment. we're trying to put it all together. >> i will let you go and make the call. >> appreciate it. >> thank you very much, joel. >> randi, lapd says they are on alert and offering protection to potential targets of this man until they get official word and that official word, i'm assume willing come from the san bernardino sheriffs department because the lapd continues to say this is their operation. they are responsible for this scene up by this cabin. they are the ones who this information will come through. >> right. captain smith out here earlier just beside me saying they are taking the lead on this. san bernardino county will be taking the lead on this. we are getting a different message than we are getting from san bernardino county in terms of that they are shutting down

operations out there in a sense. because here, the captain said they are doing nothing like that. in fact, they still have patrols out. they are still looking for the man named christopher dorner. they still have 50 families protected under police protection here. so they havent given up. he said until they identify that body inside that cabin as christopher dorner or christopher dorner is in handcuffs in jail they are not going to stop looking for him or protecting these families. as we talked about there is one police captain with a wife and six children who hasn't left his house since the manhunt began. until it is -- until that body is identified for sure, they are not going anywhere. >> randi, appreciate your reporting. much more ahead from big bear, california. the path was paved with rage. we will dig deeper on why he was fired years ago and later a

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breaking news tonight. the manhunt for christopher dorner culminating in a burning cabin in big bear, california. the lapd is saying the cabin is too hot for anyone to go in and search. look at the scenario. the allegations that dorner originally made and what was behind his anger at the lapd. it began six years ago when dorner was an officer with the lapd. >> the subject of christopher dorner's rage goes back to an incident in july of 2007. he was on patrol with a female officer, a veteran of the force, when they were dispatched to check out a report of a mentally unstable man gamed christopher getler. he refused to leave the grounds of a hotel and after a struggle he and his partner subdued him. then dorner says his partner, who is white kicked getler who was also white twice the chest and once in the face when he was cuffed. he said the kick left a visible injury below the check and left eye.

the blue line he spoke of is a legendary unspoken code of conduct among police that states you never rat out a fellow officer. the lapd did launch an internal investigation in to dorner's complaint but found quote the alleged kicks had not occurred. dorner said the department stated i lied and made up the report. according to dorner this was a result of corruption and retaliation on the part of the lapd. terminating me for telling the truth about caucasian officer kicking a mentally ill man is disgusting, dorner writes. with the discovery and evidence available you will see the truth. the evidence dorner points to is the testimony of getler himself. court documents show he told the lapd he was kicked by a female police officer. getler's father also testified

his son told him about the attack. nbc 4 los angeles spoke exclusively with getter will's father who says he remembers the night in 2007 when his son came home and told him he was kicked. >> two in the chest and one in the face. >> this is my last report, dorner writes, the lapd has sur pressed the truth and it led to deadly consequences. but did the lapd really suppress the truth? court documents show the testimony of getler and his father was heard by the board of rights, who say, quote, while the board acknowledged that the testimony of getler and his father indicated a kicking had occurred, getler is schizophrenic. they found he was unreliable witness and his father's testimony was here say. >> dorner challenged his firing in the court of appeals but lost. this incident is not dorner's only problem with the lapd.

he also accuses officers of rampant racism saying they used racial slurs on the job. he writes, quote, the department has not changed since the rampart and rodney king days. it has gotten worse. in his manifesto he promises quote terminating officers because they expose a culture of lying, racism and excessive use of force will change. the blue line will be forever severed. you have awoken a sleeping giant. >> the lapd said they will reinvestigate the original allegations that dorner made. with him dead we may never know why or when he decided to vent his rage in this way. james ucera met corner at southern utah university. they were classmates. what is your reaction to what transpired the last few hours? >> well, it is an indescribable sensation being live on the phone with a television program

hearing that your friend just committed suicide or was burned up in a building. it is, i'm not being cavalier about it. it is indescribable. this sort of emotional roller coaster i have been through the past few dans tries to come to terms with everything that has gone on. >> obviously the person you felt you knew is different than the person that the american public has come to hear about the last couple of days. i know you have done this a lot. but describe the person you knew, the friend that you remember from your days in school together. >> sure. chris was a guy who was approachable. had a great sense of humor. fun to be around. intelligent. good conversationalist. the kind of guy that i think most people would want to hang out with and spend time. needless to say what has gone on the past couple of days is pretty shocking, but yeah,

again, he was just -- he was really, in my experience, a pretty terrific individual for whom i have a great deal of respect. >> i'm wondering if you read the so-called manifesto, if so, if you heard the voice of the person you knew in there somewhere? >> i have not read it. i have seen bits and pieces reported in the media but i haven't read the whole thing to comment on it one way or the other. >> is this how you thought it would end, assuming it is over, is this how you thought it would end? >> assuming it is over. i'll tell you, one of the things about chris dorner they always respected is he was a person of conviction and when he made up his mind about something, right or wrong, you weren't going to convince him otherwise. i generally respect that trait but it may have been one of the

things that brought about his demise. once he got going on this frankly mission of vengeance he was on, just based on his personality type, the way i knew him, there was not going to be any good end to it. >> james, i know it's been a long day for you and long many days for you. appreciate you being with us tonight. thank you very much. >> my pleasure. take care. >> we'll be right back. this is america.

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